Inside Global Power

[00:00:00]

[00:00:06] Peter Mallouk: Okay. All [00:00:07] right, Condoleezza Rice, thank you so much for spending time with me today. I've been, really been looking forward to this.

[00:00:11] Condoleezza Rice: Well, thanks. It's great to be with you.

[00:00:13] Peter Mallouk: I'm gonna just di- [00:00:14] dive right in. I want to start with a story you've shared I've, I've heard in the past about when you were just eight years old and you lost your [00:00:21] friend-

[00:00:21] Condoleezza Rice: Yeah

[00:00:21] Peter Mallouk: in the Baptist church shooting and how it influenced your life and how your parents dealt with you. And- Yeah ... tell me about overcome- how [00:00:28] you absorbed that and how you overcame that.

[00:00:30] Condoleezza Rice: Well, I have to start with the fact that, uh- I'm sorry. I'm

[00:00:32] Peter Mallouk: sorry to have to stop. The, [00:00:35] this wire is coming out here. Sorry.

[00:00:40] Condoleezza Rice: Okay. [00:00:42] Start again? Yes. Okay. Over to you. Thank

[00:00:47] Peter Mallouk: you. I'm so excited to be with you today, [00:00:49] Condoleezza Rice. Thanks for taking the time.

[00:00:50] Condoleezza Rice: Great to be with you.

[00:00:51] Peter Mallouk: I'm gonna dive right in. There's a story about your childhood that I've heard you tell that I'd love for [00:00:56] you to share about. You're just eight years old.

[00:00:58] Peter Mallouk: You lost your best friend in the Baptist church shooting, and I know your parents, um, [00:01:03] were really there for you and evolved your thinking. Yeah. How did that influence who you are today?

[00:01:08] Condoleezza Rice: Well, I have to start with the fact that [00:01:10] this was in Birmingham, segregated Birmingham- Right ... at the height of the civil rights, uh, movement, '63.

[00:01:16] Condoleezza Rice: But this was a [00:01:17] community that was very kind, loving, almost cocoon-like. I, I lived in a little neighborhood not too far, [00:01:24] uh, from my father's church. He was a Presbyterian minister. He was a high school guidance counselor. He was the football coach. My mother [00:01:31] was a teacher. And, uh, so the community was all about the kids, and so when this happened at the 16th Street Baptist Church, [00:01:38] uh, it was a shock to the entire community because all of these little girls had lived and gone to school not too [00:01:45] far away.

[00:01:46] Condoleezza Rice: And, uh, as an eight-year-old, of course, it was terrifying, but for the first time I thought it was kind of terrifying for my parents [00:01:52] too because, uh, bombs were going off all over Birmingham in those days. And you had that sense that maybe this was something that your parents [00:01:59] didn't feel that they could protect you from.

[00:02:01] Condoleezza Rice: But, uh, they also, uh, the community was so kind and loving [00:02:06] that it, it was just embrace and understand and recognize that this was a, a very [00:02:13] sad moment, uh, but that the kids were gonna be okay, and that's how they handled it. Uh, this, this was a community that [00:02:20] was faith, family, and education, and so maybe faith is the one that, uh, took over at that moment.

[00:02:25] Peter Mallouk: And what's really interesting to me about this [00:02:27] is most people would have a very negative outlook of all of that. Yeah. And you really speak about the ne- the neighborhood was loving- Yeah ... and you had a great [00:02:34] community. Right. And your parents were loving. Yeah. S- that attitude has probably really permeated through your whole life, I imagine

[00:02:39] Condoleezza Rice: Well, I, I [00:02:41] try to make it permeate through my whole life.

[00:02:42] Condoleezza Rice: I try to remember that my parents and their friends had a kind of mantra in [00:02:48] Birmingham. And remember, this is Bull Connor's Birmingham Mm-hmm It's a Birmingham where you can't go to a movie theater or to a restaurant, uh, because you're, [00:02:55] you're Black. And yet, uh, they had me believing if I couldn't have a hamburger at the Woolworth's lunch counter, that was okay.

[00:03:00] Condoleezza Rice: I could be President of the [00:03:02] United States if I wanted to be

[00:03:03] Background: Wow

[00:03:03] Condoleezza Rice: And they just had this sense that, uh, you should look to your limitless horizons, not [00:03:09] to the constraints. Uh, they used to say, "There are no victims. The minute you say you're a victim, you have given your [00:03:16] life to s- uh, y- the control of your life to someone else."

[00:03:18] Condoleezza Rice: Now, it's absolutely true that there were victims. Right Denise McNair Yeah, your friend ... the y- young [00:03:23] girl you were describing, was a victim of this terrible time. But there was a sense that you shouldn't, uh, [00:03:30] internalize the constraints. You should leap over them. And, uh, that was very much the way that that whole community [00:03:37] operated

[00:03:37] Peter Mallouk: Well, you've done a good job of that.

[00:03:38] Peter Mallouk: You, you know, we fast-forward. You're a National Security Advisor during the [00:03:44] most tragic time in the United States Yeah ... you know, ni- 9/11. And I'm curious your thoughts when you, when the second plane, [00:03:51] uh- Yeah ... hit the second tower Yeah ... uh, what you were thinking then, the decisions made in those first 24 hours.

[00:03:57] Peter Mallouk: How do you look [00:03:58] back on it today and- Any lessons learned?

[00:04:01] Condoleezza Rice: Well, the, the shock was that, uh, [00:04:05] there had not been an attack on the territory of the United States since the War of 1812. Mm-hmm. Remember, Pearl Harbor was a military [00:04:12] base, uh, in not yet even a state, uh, Hawaii. And-

[00:04:15] Peter Mallouk: You

[00:04:15] Condoleezza Rice: know, most

[00:04:15] Peter Mallouk: people don't

[00:04:16] Condoleezza Rice: think about it that way

[00:04:17] Condoleezza Rice: that's right. But think about that. That's right. That's [00:04:19] interesting. Yeah. tended to think of our security as an external security problem- Right ... not an internal security problem. [00:04:26] And so when the, the first plane went in, uh, I thought it was an accident. I talked to President Bush- Oh, wow ... and he said, "Uh, it must [00:04:33] be some kind of accident."

[00:04:34] Condoleezza Rice: But somebody said, "No, it was a commercial airliner." I thought, "Well, that's strange." Then the second plane goes in. Right. [00:04:40] And, uh, right away, and I was actually at a staff meeting when the second plane went in, and now you know it's a terrorist attack. Right. It was [00:04:47] something planned. And, uh, those moments afterward were really very consequential because, uh, I tried [00:04:54] to reach Colin Powell.

[00:04:55] Condoleezza Rice: He was in Peru, Secretary of State. They said that George Tenet, the, uh, CIA [00:05:01] director, had gone to a bunker, and they said, "We're trying to reach Secretary Rumsfeld, but his phone is just ringing and ringing and ringing." Oh, my. And of course, the [00:05:08] plane had hit the Pentagon.

[00:05:08] Peter Mallouk: Yeah.

[00:05:09] Condoleezza Rice: About that time, the Secret Service says, "You've gotta get to a bunker."

[00:05:12] Condoleezza Rice: Now, when the Secret Service wants to [00:05:15] escort you under those circumstances, they don't ask. They pick you up- Right ... and they kind of carry you. No

[00:05:18] Peter Mallouk: choice.

[00:05:18] Condoleezza Rice: And I remember being sort of, uh, h- hustled toward, uh, [00:05:22] levitated toward the bunker. And then some really consequential moments. Uh, the, now every plane had become a [00:05:29] missile, and we had to ground every airplane.

[00:05:32] Condoleezza Rice: I can remember to this day Norm Mineta, [00:05:36] the Transportation Secretary, sitting with a legal pad trying to make sure every plane would land. And [00:05:43] then, uh, one of the hardest moments, when the vice president- Uh, had a call with the president and he asked him, "The Air [00:05:50] Force wants to know if a plane is not squawking properly, should they shoot it down?"

[00:05:54] Peter Mallouk: Oh, wow.

[00:05:55] Condoleezza Rice: And the president gave the [00:05:57] order. When that plane went down in the field in Phil- in Pennsylvania, we thought we'd shot it down- Mm-hmm ... for about 15 minutes, we- And [00:06:04] Dick

[00:06:04] Peter Mallouk: Cheney even mentioned

[00:06:05] Condoleezza Rice: that, that they did. He, that- On live- And it was really terrifying for him- Mm ... terrifying for us. The other moments I'll [00:06:11] remember, talking to President Putin because, uh, at that moment, uh, you have this, uh, potential [00:06:18] interaction between Russian and American forces.

[00:06:21] Condoleezza Rice: Right. You don't wanna just keep going up on alert and get to what is [00:06:25] essentially nuclear alert.

[00:06:25] Background: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:26] Condoleezza Rice: And President Putin was trying to reach President Bush, but President Bush was trying to get to a safe [00:06:32] location. And so I talked to President Putin, and he said, uh, I said, um, "Our forces are going up on alert."

[00:06:38] Condoleezza Rice: [00:06:39] He said, "Yes, I can see that." I thought- ... "Of course you can. Of course you can." Right. And, uh, he said, "But don't worry, ours are coming down. We cancel all [00:06:46] exercises." The other thing that we did was we got out a message to every, uh, post in the world, [00:06:53] "The United States has not been decapitated," because we couldn't speak.

[00:06:57] Background: Yeah, interesting.

[00:06:58] Condoleezza Rice: And you don't want friend or foe [00:07:00] to think that you're not functioning.

[00:07:01] Background: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:01] Condoleezza Rice: So those were the most consequential decisions. As time went on, there would be consequential [00:07:07] decisions about what to do in Afghanistan, uh, about almost brute force bringing together the [00:07:14] FBI and the CIA. One had internal security, the other had external security.

[00:07:19] Condoleezza Rice: They didn't talk.

[00:07:20] Background: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:20] Condoleezza Rice: And [00:07:21] so they would sit in the Oval Office every morning and brief the president together. So we had to, uh, I would, I would go [00:07:28] so far as to say jerry-rig- ... some, uh, some methods for those first, uh, couple of months [00:07:35] because we, we just didn't have an internal security apparatus. We, uh, everybody else's ministry of the interior does kind [00:07:42] of what the FBI, uh, does plus ours did, uh, our Department of the Interior did Indian reservations and national parks.

[00:07:48] Peter Mallouk: Oh, my. [00:07:49] Yeah. Yeah. Is there any lessons learned? Anything that you think back maybe should've been handled [00:07:56] differently or...?

[00:07:56] Condoleezza Rice: Oh, I think of every, practically every day- Yeah ... about that, especially now as we get close to the [00:08:03] 25th, uh- Mm-hmm ... anniversary. Uh, of course, if we had known something was going to happen, uh, we [00:08:10] would've done more, but, uh, m- the problem was knowing because our intelligence apparatus was not, [00:08:17] uh, structured- Right

[00:08:18] Condoleezza Rice: to deal with internal security threat of that kind. I, I think one of the, the great things [00:08:24] about the response to 9/11, and this was not just the administration, but Congress and, and in [00:08:31] fact, Congress put together a 9/11 commission-

[00:08:34] Background: Mm-hmm ...

[00:08:34] Condoleezza Rice: which looked at every- Part of that and gave [00:08:38] us real recommendations to how to restructure so that it wouldn't happen again.

[00:08:44] Condoleezza Rice: [00:08:45] Uh, for instance, this is why we have a Department of Homeland Security. Mm-hmm. We had no Department of Homeland Security. It's why [00:08:52] every governor has a Homeland Security advisor now. And so those things, uh, got [00:08:59] done because we took a hard look at what had gone wrong. And then, um, we really did. We didn't [00:09:06] defeat Al-Qaeda's ideology.

[00:09:08] Condoleezza Rice: It still exists in pieces, but the kind of highly structured paramilitary [00:09:13] organization that did 9/11, we defeated that organization, and I'm grateful that there wasn't another attack.

[00:09:18] Peter Mallouk: And part of the [00:09:20] consequence of 9/11 was the invasion of Iraq- Mm ... uh, which is kind of coming back to the forefront today.

[00:09:26] Peter Mallouk: Yeah,

[00:09:26] Condoleezza Rice: right.

[00:09:26] Peter Mallouk: [00:09:27] Um, also with the benefit of hindsight, how do you look back on all the decisions around that invasion? W-

[00:09:32] Condoleezza Rice: well, the benefit of hindsight [00:09:34] is always an interesting concept because what you do today can affect what you do tomorrow, but not what you did yesterday.

[00:09:39] Peter Mallouk: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:40] Condoleezza Rice: And I think [00:09:41] people have to realize and recognize that when you're in a decision-making situation, you know what you know at the time, not what you learn later.[00:09:48]

[00:09:48] Condoleezza Rice: Now, what did we know at the time? We knew that Saddam Hussein was a cancer in the region who had, uh, tried [00:09:55] to, uh, who had occupied his neighbor, uh, 10 years before in Kuwait. We knew that he had an [00:10:02] association with weapons of mass destruction. He had used them- Mm ... in the Iran-Iraq War. We knew that when [00:10:09] they were on the ground in 1991 after, uh, the first Gulf War, that he was, uh, about a year [00:10:16] from, uh, nuclear capability.

[00:10:17] Condoleezza Rice: So those are the things that we knew, and we knew that the intelligence thought that he was [00:10:23] reconstituting that capability. Mm. So dangerous man, a penchant for having weapons of m- mass destruction, and a penchant for invi- [00:10:30] invading his neighbors, and we knew that the constraints that had been put on him in 1991 were not holding.

[00:10:35] Condoleezza Rice: Under those [00:10:37] circumstances and the fact that intelligence isn't always right, as we had learned on 9/11- Mm ... [00:10:44] you don't want to be late with a threat like that. And so I wish we had known more about [00:10:51] the state of his weapons of mass destruction program, uh, but I'm not sorry that, that ... And I [00:10:58] have to say, the lives lost will never come back.

[00:11:00] Condoleezza Rice: For that, I'm sorry. But I'm not sorry that Saddam Hussein is no longer a factor in the Middle [00:11:05] East. Mm-hmm. I'm not sorry that, uh, of the m- multiple armies that the Israelis have now defeated, [00:11:12] um, so that they now are more secure in the Middle East, that Saddam Hussein was the one that we defeated.

[00:11:18] Peter Mallouk: You know, I in- I [00:11:19] got to interview Colin Powell.

[00:11:20] Peter Mallouk: It was one of my favorite interviews ever- Yeah ... um, about a year before he passed. Yeah. And I, I feel [00:11:26] like he had a, a, a little bit of regret around ... He talked a lot about the [00:11:33] information he relied on that he- To, that later proved to not be accurate Mm So v- somewhat a similar [00:11:40] answer in that, "Hey, I did the right thing with what I knew- Yeah

[00:11:42] Peter Mallouk: but I wish I had known a little bit more- Yeah ... and maybe the action would have been

[00:11:44] Condoleezza Rice: different." And, and I'll tell you something. If you are, if [00:11:47] you serve in positions like that-

[00:11:48] Peter Mallouk: Mm ...

[00:11:48] Condoleezza Rice: you're going to have multiples of that. Yeah. Because the fact is, uh, [00:11:54] information doesn't tend to be perfect. Right. And, uh, war tends to throw you curve balls.

[00:12:00] Condoleezza Rice: [00:12:01] Mm-hmm. But, um, the reason for doing it was the right reason. [00:12:08] Had we known what we knew, I can't tell you what we might have done, but I do know [00:12:15] that we acted on what was available at the time.

[00:12:18] Peter Mallouk: Uh, you mentioned Putin, uh- Yeah ... as w- and here we are. He [00:12:22] survived so many administrations. Yeah, yeah. W- did you ever see him as a friend or an ally, or h- was there [00:12:29] always a sense through the administration that, you know, obviously carries forward to da- today, that this is an enemy that has to be dealt with, [00:12:36] uh, as an enemy?

[00:12:36] Peter Mallouk: Like, what's your view then versus now?

[00:12:38] Condoleezza Rice: Well, he w- he was, he's a hard man, right? I mean, tough.

[00:12:42] Peter Mallouk: Yeah.

[00:12:42] Condoleezza Rice: A [00:12:43] KGB agent. Mm. Uh, uh, not a democrat. Right. That you knew. But we did have cooperation on some [00:12:50] important elements. Uh, for instance, when we went into Afghanistan to try to get rid of the Al-Qaeda nest- Mm ... in [00:12:57] Afghanistan, the Russians were one of our most important, uh, supporters and, and helpers.

[00:13:02] Condoleezza Rice: Uh, they helped [00:13:04] to, uh, to provide, uh, as it turns out, donkeys to the, uh, Northern Alliance because- Right ... [00:13:11] that's how they traveled in those high mountains. Interesting. Uh, y- They

[00:13:13] Peter Mallouk: were very familiar with

[00:13:14] Condoleezza Rice: Afghanistan, right? They were very familiar with Afghanistan, and actually they used it to g- [00:13:18] Yeah ... to good fortune.

[00:13:19] Condoleezza Rice: Uh, I will say it was always a little strange to see these pictures of 20th century, 21st century [00:13:25] American aircraft and men on do- donkeys. Mm-hmm. But that was the nature of the war. So the Russians were, were [00:13:32] helpful in that way. They were actually helpful early on on Iran. Uh, so we had some ways of working together.[00:13:39]

[00:13:39] Condoleezza Rice: But I think what happened over time was the, the more we talked about the democracy agenda, the [00:13:46] more we, uh, said that, "You know, if Ukraine wants to join NATO, Ukraine should [00:13:53] be allowed to do that," Putin started to believe that somehow we were after him.

[00:13:58] Peter Mallouk: Well, we had made a promise we [00:14:00] wouldn't do that, right?

[00:14:00] Peter Mallouk: Or one of

[00:14:00] Condoleezza Rice: them- No, that's actually n- That's not accurate? No, that's actually not true. Okay. All right? This, this- All right, so clarify for me ... th- all right, because this has gotten wrong in [00:14:07] history. Okay. I was in that negotiation with Jim Baker.

[00:14:10] Background: Okay.

[00:14:10] Condoleezza Rice: Right? 'Cause I was the Soviet specialist in 1990.

[00:14:12] Condoleezza Rice: Interesting. [00:14:14] What Baker said was, they were trying to talk about the division of Germany. This was to unify Germany. And [00:14:21] remember that Germany, uh, w- was now partly in Warsaw Pact and partly in NATO- Mm ... and it [00:14:28] was clear that it was going to choose to be in NATO. And Baker did say, "We won't move our [00:14:35] forces-" East meaning to East Germany,

[00:14:38] Peter Mallouk: right?

[00:14:38] Peter Mallouk: Mm.

[00:14:39] Condoleezza Rice: There was never- Do you think just a

[00:14:39] Peter Mallouk: big misunderstanding?

[00:14:41] Condoleezza Rice: Yeah, the ... I ... Well, [00:14:42] no, I think- ... some rewriting of history, to be, to be frank. Okay. Okay. Um, because there was never ... Nobody was even thinking [00:14:49] about the Czech Rep- Czechoslovakia- Mm-hmm ... or Hungary or let alone Ukraine- Yeah ... at that point in [00:14:56] time. And then you have to ask yourself, as a great power, is it really appropriate and [00:15:03] moral after 45 years of Soviet domination of places like Poland and [00:15:10] Czechoslovakia, multiple invasions of those countries, milli- uh, hundreds killed in, in the invasion of Hungary in [00:15:17] 1956, to say to them, "Now you've freed yourself of the Soviet yoke.

[00:15:21] Condoleezza Rice: You have become democracies, but oh, by the way, you're on [00:15:24] your own with- Right ... the, with the Russians." So I think there was a very strong moral case for the, um, [00:15:31] for the, um, expansion of NATO to those states, and I would ask the following: Would you rather be [00:15:38] Poland today and a member of NATO or Ukraine that got left in a vacuum?

[00:15:42] Peter Mallouk: Right. How sh- how do you think that [00:15:45] Putin should think about it with NATO right up on his border? Hmm. Just accept it and tell me-

[00:15:49] Condoleezza Rice: What's really interesting is I, I spent a [00:15:52] lot of time with Vladimir Putin and so did President Bush. He never once mentioned the expansion of NATO.

[00:15:57] Peter Mallouk: Interesting.

[00:15:58] Condoleezza Rice: So if it had [00:15:59] been a problem for him, I thought he would've brought it up at some point.

[00:16:02] Condoleezza Rice: Now, what he did react to was when we, uh, [00:16:06] decided that we should try to put missile defense components in Romania and, uh, in Poland, and I remember [00:16:13] going with, uh, Bob Gates, who was Secretary of Defense- Yeah ... at the time, sitting with Putin at a long table in the Kremlin and [00:16:20] showing him range arcs and saying, "This is about North Korea or about Iran.

[00:16:25] Condoleezza Rice: There is no way that our [00:16:27] missile components could do anything to the thousands of Russian missiles that you have." That was sensitive to him.

[00:16:33] Background: [00:16:34] Okay.

[00:16:34] Condoleezza Rice: And it was sensitive, sensitive to him when we wanted to have, uh, Ukraine in something called the [00:16:41] Membership Action Plan. That he was sensitive about. But even the incorporation of the Baltic States-

[00:16:46] Peter Mallouk: Right

[00:16:47] Condoleezza Rice: drew [00:16:48] no objection from him.

[00:16:49] Peter Mallouk: Interesting. What do you think motivated his invasion?

[00:16:52] Condoleezza Rice: Of Ukraine?

[00:16:52] Peter Mallouk: Yes.

[00:16:53] Condoleezza Rice: Well, um, I, [00:16:55] uh, remember that he started in 2014 by taking Crimea. Right. Uh, but I, I think that he has and to [00:17:02] this day he holds a view that the Russian Empire- is, has to be [00:17:09] reconstituted Mm-hmm And as Zbigniew Brzezinski, uh, the great, uh, former National Security Advisor once said, [00:17:16] "You can't have a Russian empire and an independent Ukraine."

[00:17:19] Condoleezza Rice: Right. He told us Ukraine was a made-up country [00:17:23]

[00:17:23] Peter Mallouk: Right

[00:17:23] Condoleezza Rice: And he therefore... Now, what, what made him act on that? Uh, because I'm, [00:17:30] I'm a little surprised that he acted on it in quite the way that he did. Maybe he saw an opening. Some say that during COVID he [00:17:37] hung out with kind of Rasputin-like figures- Oh, no.

[00:17:40] Condoleezza Rice: that told him he had a messianic duty- I see ... and so forth. [00:17:44] But when you look at what they've lost in that war, you look at $1.5 trillion. [00:17:51] You look at a million people maimed or- It's unbelievable ... or killed Just incredible loss A million people who left the country. 30% [00:17:58] of their oil and gas, uh, infrastructure destroyed.

[00:18:01] Condoleezza Rice: 25% of the bombing, uh, s- strategic bombing force [00:18:05] destroyed. And you look at how now everybody says that the economy is in dire, dire straits. Right [00:18:12] And he just keeps going.

[00:18:13] Peter Mallouk: It feels like Trump tried to give him an off-ramp. Why do you think he doesn't take it?

[00:18:17] Condoleezza Rice: He did. The President did try to give [00:18:19] him- Yeah

[00:18:19] Condoleezza Rice: an off-ramp and, and he's tried repeatedly. Yeah. And look, I have no problem, i- if you can get Putin to stop this war, [00:18:26] put out a red carpet for him- Right. ... in, in, uh, Alaska. Right. I'd be perfectly happy- Whatever you need to do ... to do that. Yeah. But I, I [00:18:33] think it's in Putin's mind that he cannot, he simply cannot believe that the great Russian empire [00:18:40] can't destroy this little bug of a thing called Ukraine.

[00:18:42] Condoleezza Rice: Right How can that be?

[00:18:43] Background: Right

[00:18:44] Condoleezza Rice: And so the fact that the Ukrainians... [00:18:47] It, I, I read, I hadn't really focused on this, but the Russians have now been at war with Ukraine longer than [00:18:54] they were with the Nazis. And there was- Oh, yeah ... there's a Russian, um, pro m- military [00:19:01] person who wrote today, "By this time in World War II, our boys were in Berlin."

[00:19:07] Condoleezza Rice: [00:19:08] Just think about that.

[00:19:08] Peter Mallouk: Yeah. Incredible that the loss is just in, on both sides of that war- The loss is incredible ...

[00:19:14] Condoleezza Rice: is incredible.

[00:19:14] Peter Mallouk: Yeah. You [00:19:15] mentioned Bob Gates, and I got to interview him- Yeah ... about two years ago. And I asked him, um, [00:19:22] we, we got done talking and I said, "Hey, um, if, if I knew what you knew about the world, I'd feel a little bit better, right?"

[00:19:28] Peter Mallouk: And he said, "Peter, if [00:19:29] you knew what I knew about the world, you would never sleep again." Do you think that- Yeah ... that people like you [00:19:36] know things that- Everyone else doesn't about just how the world works

[00:19:40] Condoleezza Rice: I don't know if we know [00:19:43] things. Uh, there was a time when we knew things, uh, let's say- Right ... through intelligence or the like.

[00:19:47] Condoleezza Rice: I haven't had an intelligence briefing of- Right ... you know, any, [00:19:50] any consequence for a long time. But we, we probably are able to contextualize it and understand it in ways that- What's

[00:19:56] Peter Mallouk: [00:19:57] really happening ...

[00:19:57] Condoleezza Rice: what's really happening. You know, I can read a newspaper article, uh, about Iran, and I'll [00:20:04] understand things about it that are hard if you haven't spent time working in that environment.

[00:20:09] Condoleezza Rice: Right. Uh, [00:20:11] yes, uh, if you knew what we knew, it might be a little harder to sleep, but I would also say, uh, I also [00:20:18] know that the United States has a tendency to overcome a lot of these challenges- Mm-hmm ... and we've done it many, many times before, that we [00:20:25] have an, a military that is unmatched, that the things that they have pulled off in recent months are [00:20:32] just incredible.

[00:20:33] Condoleezza Rice: Yeah. And so, um, I, I used to say when I was secretary, I'd walk into a room and I had the [00:20:39] American economy on one shoulder, the American military on the other shoulder, and a hand of compassion on things like the President's [00:20:46] Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief, or, or the fact that the United States has been the largest food aid donor- Mm

[00:20:51] Condoleezza Rice: even to places like [00:20:53] North Korea, because no American president would use food as a weapon. And so I, I know the strengths of the United [00:21:00] States perhaps in more intimate detail, and that makes me a little bit more comfortable in the world.

[00:21:05] Peter Mallouk: You know, when you walk into a room, [00:21:07] so you talk a lot a- about being a Black female leader.

[00:21:10] Peter Mallouk: I mean, uh, uh, h- how did that work to your [00:21:14] advantage? Who- Um ... in what situations, and when was it a disadvantage for you?

[00:21:17] Condoleezza Rice: I never thought about it in such terms. Yeah. Um, people would say, "Would you have been [00:21:21] treated differently if you'd been a white male?" I'd say, "You know, I can't go back and do that experiment," right?

[00:21:24] Condoleezza Rice: So, so what's the point? Right. Um, I, I [00:21:28] think that, uh, for the most part, when you walk into a room and you're young, like when I first would walk into- [00:21:35] Mm-hmm ... those rooms to talk about Soviet military, yeah, there were people who looked at me like, "Are you in the right meeting?" And I would think, "Eh, pretty soon you're [00:21:42] gonna know I'm in the right meeting."

[00:21:43] Condoleezza Rice: Yeah. Now, part of that was the way, again, I grew up. Mm. Um, one day I came home-- This [00:21:49] is after we'd moved to Denver, not in Birmingham. Right. After we moved to Denver, I'd gone to something, and somebody had not wanted to sit next to me [00:21:56] because I was Black.

[00:21:57] Peter Mallouk: Wow.

[00:21:57] Condoleezza Rice: Right? And my father said, "That's just fine, as long as they move."[00:22:03]

[00:22:03] Peter Mallouk: Right?

[00:22:03] Condoleezza Rice: So his point was- Right ... don't let somebody else's prejudice- Yeah ... be your problem, and that's kind of all the way, always the way I thought about it. [00:22:10] So for the most part, if you're Secretary of State, you're Secretary of State. They really don't wanna make you mad. They don't wanna make a big deal about [00:22:17] what you look like.

[00:22:17] Condoleezza Rice: They just wanna get something done with the American Secretary of State. Where it was a little bit helpful, actually, was not [00:22:24] in the way people reacted to me, but in the way that I understood certain issues So we advocated for [00:22:31] the idea that no person should have to live in tyranny. Yeah. No man, woman, or child should have to live in tyranny.

[00:22:36] Condoleezza Rice: And occasionally you would [00:22:38] hear somebody in a meeting say, "Well, they have no tradition of democracy." And you would say, "Well, you know, but [00:22:45] this is a hard thing, democracy, and we Americans probably ought to have more patience about this [00:22:52] than most." Mm-hmm. Because America's first constitution counted my ancestors as three-fifths of a man.

[00:22:58] Condoleezza Rice: And then [00:22:59] several decades later, or several s- uh, a century and so later, I would take an oath of office to that [00:23:06] constitution- Right ... to protect and defend it.

[00:23:07] Background: Yeah.

[00:23:08] Condoleezza Rice: So who are we to say they have no tradition [00:23:13] so they'll just have to live in tyranny? We've had plenty of trouble in our democracy getting to a place where we the people [00:23:20] met what it was supposed to mean.

[00:23:21] Background: Yeah.

[00:23:22] Condoleezza Rice: The other time that was really helpful to me was, um, I was actually, uh, [00:23:27] negotiating, um, Israeli-Palestinian issues, and we'd had a really, really long meeting. And, uh, every [00:23:34] foreign minister in the country, or in the world, had decided to speak, including the Vatican had ta- ... had sent a representative. [00:23:41] And, um, at the end of it, the s- my State Department staff gave me some things I was supposed to read to, to close the meeting, [00:23:48] and I stopped, and I put it aside, and I said, "You know, we talk about the two-state solution, and it sounds kind of clinical, [00:23:55] but I think I understand why an Israeli mother, when she puts her child to bed, [00:24:02] worries that there might be a terrorist attack because I know that's how my mother felt in Birmingham that night after the bombing of the church."[00:24:09]

[00:24:09] Condoleezza Rice: I said, "But I also know what it's like for a Palestinian mother to have to tell her child, 'You can't go on that highway because you're [00:24:16] Palestinian,' because my mother had to say that to me if I wanted to go to, uh, an amusement park in [00:24:23] Birmingham." And so you have a way of thinking about progress that is different [00:24:30] if you've grown up as a Black American woman.

[00:24:35] Condoleezza Rice: It's not that you [00:24:37] think of it as somehow a curse or somehow a constraint, but it does give you a little bit more [00:24:44] context for How other people may be viewing progress and how hard it is to get there

[00:24:49] Peter Mallouk: I mean, so speaking of [00:24:51] those discu- every administration has, has tried to solve that problem. I think, um, the biggest push I, as an [00:24:58] outsider I observed was, was President Clinton and then- Yeah, right

[00:25:00] Peter Mallouk: President Obama, you know, gave it a shot. Yeah But President Clinton really seemed to make a [00:25:05] really big effort that really

[00:25:05] Condoleezza Rice: looked- Well, he did. He made a big effort with Yasser Arafat. Yeah Uh, Arafat can do it. W- w- well, actually, there was a big effort by Ehud [00:25:12] Olmert- Yeah ... in the last months of the Bush administration.

[00:25:14] Condoleezza Rice: Mm. And that was the one that should have gone through.

[00:25:18] Peter Mallouk: Mm.

[00:25:18] Condoleezza Rice: [00:25:19] Because remember, the, the one that President Clinton worked so hard for was actually the Labour Party [00:25:26] in- Right ... uh, Israel. This was Likud.

[00:25:29] Peter Mallouk: Yeah.

[00:25:29] Condoleezza Rice: This was the, uh, party of Ariel Sharon.

[00:25:32] Peter Mallouk: [00:25:33] Mm-hmm. Much harder to deal with.

[00:25:34] Condoleezza Rice: These were the conservatives- Yeah.

[00:25:35] Condoleezza Rice: Right ... who were saying to the Palestinians, "Here is a blueprint for- Mm ... a [00:25:40] Palestinian state." And unfortunately, they couldn't take it.

[00:25:44] Peter Mallouk: Mm.

[00:25:44] Condoleezza Rice: I remember saying to President Abbas, [00:25:47] it was November when Olmert put this, uh, put this out, and it had all kinds of, [00:25:54] uh, changes in the way the territory would go, uh, a way to deal with the holy sites, uh, etc.

[00:26:00] Condoleezza Rice: [00:26:01] And I said to him, "Why don't you just come with Olmert to Washington, deposit it with President Bush? [00:26:08] You don't have to say you accept all the terms. President Bush can then hand that to President Obama," who had already been elected.

[00:26:14] Background: Right.

[00:26:14] Condoleezza Rice: [00:26:15] And they can go from there. But the Palestinians couldn't do it. Mm.

[00:26:18] Condoleezza Rice: Because I, I think that the Palestinians [00:26:22] are among the most tolerant, among the most entrepreneurial people in the region, but they don't yet [00:26:29] accept the narrative- Mm-hmm ... of the right of Israel to exist. Yasser Arafat said he [00:26:36] accepted it, but too many of their maps still don't have Israel on them.

[00:26:40] Peter Mallouk: So if you could wave a

[00:26:41] Peter Mallouk: What would, what would be the you wave [00:26:43] your hand solution?

[00:26:44] Condoleezza Rice: Well, we all know what the solution is. It's two states, and- Yeah ... and there's lots of w- w- work to do with [00:26:50] maps and so forth. Right. But, um, if I could wave my hand, uh, the Palestinians would have new leadership. Yeah. They'd have more youthful [00:26:57] leadership, and they'd find a partner in Israel who, as Ariel Sharon said, and Sharon was, was [00:27:04] no slacker when it came to- Yeah

[00:27:05] Condoleezza Rice: Israeli security. Mm. But he said, uh, "I don't wish to rule over Palestinians. Um, and [00:27:11] as a ... It pains me as a Jew," he said, "but we will have to divide Judea and Samaria." And I hope there's [00:27:18] someone in Israel who has that same view.

[00:27:20] Peter Mallouk: I hope so, too, for both sides, that they can both get leaders- Absolutely ... that are maybe willing to, [00:27:25] to- Absolutely

[00:27:25] Peter Mallouk: to bridge this gap. So let's shift to what we used to talk about all the time, our biggest enemy was gonna be China. Now we're- Yeah ... in the Middle [00:27:32] East and Russia- Yeah ... and, you know, Venezuela. Yeah. Um, and there was this thought, though, that with capitalism, that it was gonna bring democracy [00:27:39] and op- the open markets would bring an open society, and it's kind of, uh, clearly not happened.

[00:27:44] Peter Mallouk: H- how is- Do you think [00:27:46] have seen China evolve from your time- Yeah ... uh, in office to now?

[00:27:50] Condoleezza Rice: Well, I don't know that many people [00:27:53] thought that China was gonna be a democracy. Okay. But, uh, no, you're right. More open. Some people d- More open ... no, no, some people did. Right. Okay, okay, but, but I [00:28:00] think most people believed that, uh, it might liberalize.

[00:28:04] Background: Right.

[00:28:04] Condoleezza Rice: Uh, that exposure to [00:28:07] markets, uh, would, uh, because there was a, a saying, "You can't have economic liberalization and political control." Mm. And for a [00:28:14] while, that looked true. If you think about the golden children- Mm ... Tencent and Alibaba- Yes ... there was a, a [00:28:21] burgeoning private sector. Uh, there, the Chinese led the world in online [00:28:28] education startups for a while.

[00:28:29] Condoleezza Rice: There was entrepreneurship. I remember a conversation with Hu Jintao, who was president [00:28:35] before Xi Jinping, and he told President Bush, "We had 180,000 riots last year." He said, "Now, it wasn't about [00:28:42] democracy," kind of grinning. He said, "It was that a, a peasant gets his land expropriated by a [00:28:49] party chief and a developer."

[00:28:51] Condoleezza Rice: He said, "He and his friends have nowhere to go, so they riot." He said, "We need courts." I thought, "You [00:28:56] meant like an independent judiciary? That doesn't sound very communist." So, so things were- Yeah ... evolving. Um, and, uh, you, [00:29:03] if you went to universities like Tsinghua, the students had, uh, a, an ability to ask questions that you [00:29:10] would've heard asked at Stanford.

[00:29:11] Condoleezza Rice: So things were evolving. China was getting stronger. It was [00:29:17] becoming the ec- economic and military and technological peer of the United States, and then the question was, [00:29:24] what would they do with that? Would they further integrate into the international system? Would they further liberalize? And enter Xi [00:29:31] Jinping, and he made another choice.

[00:29:33] Condoleezza Rice: If you go back to economic liberalization and you can't have political [00:29:38] control, he said, "You're right. Thank you very much. I'll take political control." That was the answer we weren't expecting. And they also [00:29:45] used their integration into the international system to challenge the system-

[00:29:49] Background: Mm ...

[00:29:49] Condoleezza Rice: in the South China Sea, around [00:29:52] Taiwan, the speech that he gave in 2015 saying that China would surpass the United States in terms of frontier [00:29:59] technologies.

[00:30:00] Condoleezza Rice: And oh, by the way, civil-military fusion, we'll hand those to the PLA, so the [00:30:06] People's Liberation Army. So all of a sudden, we wake up, and we sort of say, "Wait, wait a minute. We've been investing in your technology [00:30:13] companies-" Mm-hmm ... our venture capitalists. We've been training your graduate students," which I still think we should do, but we- we- Many of them are

[00:30:19] Peter Mallouk: here

[00:30:19] Condoleezza Rice: at Stanford- [00:30:20] Many of them are here

[00:30:20] Condoleezza Rice: where we're meeting ... Stanford and other places. "And, uh, you're gonna take that technology- Yeah ... give it to the People's [00:30:27] Liberation Army so they can force us out of the Indo-Pacific?" Mm-hmm. "That doesn't sound like such a great idea." And you got a backlash.

[00:30:33] Background: Right.

[00:30:33] Condoleezza Rice: [00:30:34] And that's what we're living with now, is the backlash against that and against a Chinese economic model- [00:30:41] That has de-industrialized not just us, but everybody else because it's so export-driven that their [00:30:48] manufacturing, the, the behemoth that they've become in manufacturing, has stru- restructured the international economy.

[00:30:53] Condoleezza Rice: So it's not [00:30:55] surprising that this has, uh, has come the way that it has. Uh, hopefully there continues to be a [00:31:02] way to work with one another because you can't not work with the second-largest economy- Mm-hmm ... in the world. Uh, [00:31:09] there are some things we need to do to make sure that we don't have an accidental war.

[00:31:13] Condoleezza Rice: Um, my first crisis was [00:31:16] the so-called Hainan crisis of April 2001 when they forced one of our planes to the ground. [00:31:23] Uh, just a s- Chinese pilot hot-dogging in international airspace forced him, kept our crew for seven days, [00:31:30] wouldn't take our phone call for three.

[00:31:32] Peter Mallouk: Oh, wow.

[00:31:32] Condoleezza Rice: So we have a lot of work to do with China.

[00:31:34] Condoleezza Rice: Yeah. Yeah. But, but it's an adversarial [00:31:37] relationship now.

[00:31:37] Peter Mallouk: Feels like there's a lot of opportunities for an accident between Taiwan and Iran- A, a lot of accidents ...

[00:31:41] Condoleezza Rice: and

[00:31:41] Peter Mallouk: everything else happening. A

[00:31:41] Condoleezza Rice: lot of accident, uh, possibilities.

[00:31:43] Peter Mallouk: So [00:31:44] going over to, I can't even believe I have to ask this question. Yeah. I mean, are we still friendly with Eur- I mean, I look at the UK w- uh, the company that I run- Yeah

[00:31:50] Peter Mallouk: has now an [00:31:51] office- Yeah ... in, in the UK. Is there even a special relationship there, or is it now a point where only the UK thinks there's a special relationship? Yeah. Yeah. How do you [00:31:58] see Europe in this new world? Things are evolving so quickly.

[00:32:01] Condoleezza Rice: Right. Right.

[00:32:01] Peter Mallouk: Um-

[00:32:02] Condoleezza Rice: Well, I do think there's a special relationship with the UK.

[00:32:04] Condoleezza Rice: [00:32:05] It's partly, uh, you know, heritage and, and values. And I, I did have to tell a speech writer one time, uh, [00:32:12] "I'm sorry, Great Britain was actually not our first ally." And, you know, there was a kind of unpleasantness- Obviously not ... around [00:32:19] 1776. Right. Yes. But, uh, but they are, uh, they ... The, the reason that I think we have a special relationship is that the UK still [00:32:26] has great power DNA.

[00:32:28] Condoleezza Rice: They see, still see global issues. And I used to have a Sunday morning phone [00:32:33] call with the foreign secretary of Great Britain every morning, uh- Mm-hmm ... every Sunday morning. Nobody else. [00:32:40] Because even if the British lacked the kind of, uh, power any longer- To, uh, [00:32:47] to affect the globe in the same way. They still understood global affairs.

[00:32:52] Condoleezza Rice: And much of Europe is very [00:32:54] continentally focused- Mm-hmm ... or, you know, if it's a few former colonies, kind of focused in that way. So I found the special [00:33:01] relationship with Britain very important. I actually think Britain is the only country right now that has any claim to [00:33:08] a, uh, an innovation f- future in the frontier technologies like AI, largely because of Oxford- Mm-hmm[00:33:15]

[00:33:15] Condoleezza Rice: which produced DeepMind. So there's still reasons for that relationship to, to be special. As to the [00:33:22] rest of Europe, um, look, I, I'm a great believer in the transatlantic relationship. Everybody knows that. But we've got some work [00:33:29] to do on it. Um, I was one of those secretaries who used to go to Brussels and beg for the 2% contribution [00:33:36] to, uh, the common defense, and everybody would smile nicely, and then they wouldn't do it.

[00:33:40] Peter Mallouk: And Trump's not asking

[00:33:41] Condoleezza Rice: so nicely. Uh, no, no. And I, [00:33:43] I have to say, you know, it would never have occurred to me say, to say, "I won't defend you if you don't do it." Right. But it seems to have gotten their attention. [00:33:50] Yes. That and Mr. Putin.

[00:33:51] Peter Mallouk: Yeah.

[00:33:51] Condoleezza Rice: Because there's a lot of resentment in the United States of 80 years of carrying- Right

[00:33:56] Condoleezza Rice: [00:33:57] that burden alone. 80 years.

[00:33:59] Peter Mallouk: Yeah.

[00:33:59] Condoleezza Rice: One of the best lines that I heard was when President ... uh, he said, uh, [00:34:04] "Why do they have such great airports?" Okay? What was the meaning of that? While they were building civilian infrastructure, [00:34:11] while they were building a massive social welfare state, we were carrying the burdens of defense.

[00:34:17] Background: [00:34:18] Right.

[00:34:18] Condoleezza Rice: And so Europe needs to step up. I think they're beginning to understand that. Um, I don't think it helps to [00:34:25] say Iran is your war, uh, because, um, uh, th- that, again, builds the resentment. [00:34:32] So let me get this right. Every time we have to do something hard because there's a bad regime that has been [00:34:39] threatening us and everybody else for 47 years and building nuclear capability that you're on the paper [00:34:46] as saying that it's a threat to international peace and security through multiple UN security resolutions, and we finally [00:34:53] decide we have to do something about that, and all of a sudden it's our war?

[00:34:57] Condoleezza Rice: So I'm saying to our European friends, um, [00:35:00] don't speak into existence that we will do this without the United States, [00:35:07] because there are some in the United States who would be perfectly happy to say, "Fine, you're on your own." So we [00:35:14] need to, uh, control our rhetoric, and, uh, we need to find things to work on, and we better do it quickly.

[00:35:20] Peter Mallouk: The r- [00:35:21] yeah, rhetoric has been amped up about 27 notches - Yeah, yeah ... in the, in the last few years. Mark Carney spoke at Davos [00:35:28] about kind of the crumbling of the, the globalization and the world order and everyone kind of [00:35:35] going their own way. What are your thoughts around that?

[00:35:37] Condoleezza Rice: Well, I'm, I'm sorry that the speech took on, i- it felt like a little bit of an [00:35:42] anti-American cast-

[00:35:43] Peter Mallouk: Mm-hmm

[00:35:43] Condoleezza Rice: because the analysis wasn't wrong.

[00:35:45] Peter Mallouk: Yeah.

[00:35:46] Condoleezza Rice: Uh, the international system that we [00:35:49] built, the United States, after World War II- Mm ... when we were 70% of the world's manufacturing, [00:35:56] probably 60% of the world's GDP-

[00:35:58] Background: Right ...

[00:35:59] Condoleezza Rice: and instead of protecting it, we created a free trading system where you [00:36:03] wouldn't have to, where, you know, it was the international economy that was not zero sum-

[00:36:07] Background: Mm-hmm

[00:36:07] Condoleezza Rice: where your growth didn't come at my [00:36:10] expense- Right ... which had been the entire history of the international economy. And we redistributed through trade [00:36:17] some of our benefits to the rest of the world because we really believed that if everybody came up together, including by the [00:36:24] way foes like Japan and Germany, that we would all be better off.

[00:36:28] Background: Mm.

[00:36:29] Condoleezza Rice: And we, uh, [00:36:31] believed in free trade and we defended free trade, not perfectly, but more than anybody else. And [00:36:38] then, uh, we did, as I said, provide the security, uh, shield for that. Now, [00:36:45] three things happened that eroded that. One is, uh, China, as I've described, [00:36:52] defected.

[00:36:52] Background: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:52] Condoleezza Rice: China decided to take its benefits and challenge instead.

[00:36:56] Condoleezza Rice: Mm-hmm. Uh, I do think resentment [00:36:59] grew, uh, that, uh, the United States was a growing economy but it was a service economy, and [00:37:06] manufacturing had left, and what happened to those people who weren't benefiting from globalization? You know, the unemployed [00:37:13] coal miner in West Virginia? Mm-hmm. When, when I teach a school at the grad- uh, a, a class at the graduate school of business, I'll [00:37:20] inevitably have a student of the following, uh, type: born in Brazil, went to college at Oxford, [00:37:27] first job was in Dubai, now is at Stanford Business School, next job will be in Shanghai.

[00:37:31] Condoleezza Rice: Right. Moves easily around the world.

[00:37:33] Peter Mallouk: [00:37:34] Right.

[00:37:34] Condoleezza Rice: Most people never move more than 25 miles from where they were born.

[00:37:38] Peter Mallouk: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:38] Condoleezza Rice: And they [00:37:41] felt, uh, that they had no prospects. They felt that cultural elites looked down on them. They felt [00:37:48] that working with your hands was considered lower class. And they found their voice in populism.[00:37:55]

[00:37:55] Condoleezza Rice: And so when you talk about the breakup of the international order as we knew it, [00:38:02] um, it's not because of who has been elected president. That's - there's a symptom [00:38:09] here of a larger breakdown in the order, and so we have to now figure out- What the new order is going to look like [00:38:16] because we don't want it to be kind of random and uncertain and volatile.

[00:38:21] Condoleezza Rice: We're trying to do some work on that [00:38:23] at the Hoover Institution in what we're calling the Global Commons Project. It was, uh, George Shultz had this word. He, uh, called it [00:38:30] the global economic and security commons that the United States helped to lead, and we're trying to figure out what's next.

[00:38:35] Peter Mallouk: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:36] Condoleezza Rice: But [00:38:37] what was there is kinda gone.

[00:38:39] Peter Mallouk: I was, uh, watching an interview with Michael Moore. This was a long time ago when, [00:38:44] uh, Hillary and Trump were running against each other, and all the polls had Hillary ahead. And Michael Moore said, "Hey, I don't [00:38:51] like the way President Obama gave an interview about the Rust Belt states," where someone had said, [00:38:58] "Hey, there's a lot of unemployment here."

[00:38:59] Peter Mallouk: And he, he said, which was true, "Well, but unemployment is down because there's more jobs in tech." But it kinda sounded [00:39:05] like- Yeah ... so, 'cause these people weren't gonna convert to tech. Yeah. I mean, their factories- Right, right ... were, were shut down. And he said, "This is the opening. [00:39:12] Trump's gonna win these states, and he's gonna be pre-" And he wound up being ri- I mean, no one else had seen that.

[00:39:17] Peter Mallouk: But that's to your point, [00:39:19] that feeling came-

[00:39:20] Condoleezza Rice: Yes ...

[00:39:21] Peter Mallouk: that feeling came first, and-

[00:39:23] Condoleezza Rice: It, it definitely did, and the, the, the [00:39:26] feeling that, um, somehow you'd been left out of- Right ... the American dream and that elites didn't understand that. And we didn't [00:39:33] prepare very well for the China shock. We really didn't. Mm-hmm.

[00:39:35] Condoleezza Rice: Uh, because if we'd been better prepared, maybe we would've been able [00:39:40] to transition people into the jobs that still existed, but some of them were lower-paying in service industry and the [00:39:47] like, and so we're, we're paying for that a bit now. Now, they- some people may have the last laugh because looks like a lot [00:39:54] of white-collar jobs may go out of business as a result of AI.

[00:39:57] Condoleezza Rice: That's right. It's funny how things turn, right?

[00:39:58] Peter Mallouk: Yes, so maybe working with your hands- And that's right ... is not gonna be a bad thing. [00:40:01] This whole, uh, lesson that everyone said 20 years ago- Yeah ... you know, "You've gotta be a computer science major." Right, right. "You've gotta be computer..." I mean, totally, completely [00:40:08] upside-down world now.

[00:40:09] Peter Mallouk: Yeah. Exactly,

[00:40:09] Condoleezza Rice: yeah.

[00:40:10] Peter Mallouk: Um, I've had the opportunity to interview President Bush a few times. I know you two, you obviously work [00:40:15] together. Yeah, close. You're very close. He speaks, I think, more fondly about you when I talk to him- Mm ... about his, his cabinet than [00:40:22] anybody else. Do you still have a, a friendship?

[00:40:24] Condoleezza Rice: We do.

[00:40:25] Condoleezza Rice: We have a friendship. We have a relationship. He was an [00:40:29] extraordinary president, and, um, there, there are two things about him. One, I tell him all the time. The first is [00:40:36] in the hardest moments, he was just a rock. He was just solid. You know, when, when we were attacked on September 11th, [00:40:43] uh, the country needed to be steadied.

[00:40:47] Condoleezza Rice: And he understood there. There's a [00:40:50] in, there's even a, a, uh, li- little do- documentary about it, but I was in Yankee Stadium with him, [00:40:57] uh, that game of the World Series- Mm-hmm ... when he threw out the first pitch. He's

[00:41:01] Peter Mallouk: walking out to the mound- Well- ... looking over his shoulder a little bit. [00:41:04] Yeah. You've got to.

[00:41:05] Condoleezza Rice: And I gathered Derek Jeter had told him, "Don't bounce it," which was- Right

[00:41:08] Condoleezza Rice: nice. But anyway- Yeah ... he goes out there. [00:41:11] And, uh, I remember thinking to myself, "The American people need their president to throw a strike," [00:41:18] and he did. And the whole place erupted in USA, you know? And I think those [00:41:25] moments, uh, the, the ability ... And, and what people perhaps don't know was he, his overwhelming preoccupation was not [00:41:32] just could we get rid of Al-Qaeda in, uh, uh, Afghanistan, but how do I make the American people feel [00:41:39] safe enough now to go back to their daily lives?

[00:41:41] Condoleezza Rice: 'Cause if they don't go back to their daily lives- Mm-hmm ... if we don't get airports open- Mm ... if we don't get [00:41:46] banks func- function again- Right ... the terrorists will have won. Yeah. That, on the day after 9/11, that's what he was concerned about. [00:41:53] The other thing is, I tell him all the time, "You know, you read more books during the time we were in office [00:42:00] by probably five times than I did."

[00:42:03] Peter Mallouk: S- No one would expect that,

[00:42:04] Condoleezza Rice: by the way. And nobody would expect that. I, I

[00:42:05] Peter Mallouk: certainly did not expect you to [00:42:07] say

[00:42:07] Condoleezza Rice: that. He read all the time, and he, we would go up to Camp David, um, uh, on the weekends sometimes, and he'd go around the [00:42:14] table and he'd say to people, "Well, what book are you reading this week? Well, what book are you reading?"

[00:42:18] Condoleezza Rice: And he and Karl Rove kind of had a contest 'cause they both read [00:42:21] a lot, and I was reading the same book I'd been reading- ... the week before because, you know, I'd been busy. You got stuff to do. And just- Yeah ... [00:42:28] but, um, he's, his curiosity, uh, was something that I think didn't always come across. [00:42:35] Mm. Uh, when we had the bout with, uh, avian flu and SARS- Mm-hmm

[00:42:41] Condoleezza Rice: uh, kind of [00:42:42] precursors, if you will- Right ... to, uh, COVID, uh, he read, uh, widely about the, the s- the [00:42:49] Spanish flu, uh, and how the pandemic had spread, and actually tried to put together a [00:42:56] program as we were leaving office for the CDC and, and National Institutes of Health to have a pandemic response. [00:43:03] But of, as often happens, it goes from administration to administration and gets lost.

[00:43:08] Peter Mallouk: Right. Yeah, that's, uh, [00:43:10] fascinating. I, I, um, think about when I was ... I g- I got to interview Clinton and him, and when I asked them their [00:43:17] favorite thing about being in office, and, and Clinton had talked about all the autobiographies- Yeah, right ... he was reading. Yeah. And Bush didn't talk about that at all. Yeah.

[00:43:22] Peter Mallouk: But Clinton's [00:43:24] answer was- And he was very honest. It was a room of 5,000 people. Yeah. He said, "I just..." He goes, "You kinda get drunk on power, and I [00:43:31] miss-" Mm. He goes, "I'm- I miss that a little bit." Oh. "To be honest, that's what it is." And President Bush said, "I miss being able to just have my [00:43:38] friends come to the White House, and everyone's like, 'I can't believe you're here.'"

[00:43:40] Peter Mallouk: So true. You know? And, and, uh- Yeah ... I love going to a lemon..." He goes, "I still love going to a [00:43:45] lemonade stand and watching the kids, like, go, 'What's going on?'" Yeah. And he really enjoyed just being kinda with people. [00:43:52]

[00:43:52] Condoleezza Rice: He-

[00:43:52] Peter Mallouk: he

[00:43:52] Condoleezza Rice: very much a people person, and one thing about the, the Bushes, both Laura and, uh, the president, they have [00:43:59] the same friends they had when they were in middle school in, in, uh, in Texas, and that tells you [00:44:06] something about people like that.

[00:44:07] Condoleezza Rice: Uh, those were the people who were often at the White House. Right. People they had known in, uh, when [00:44:13] they were in Midland, people they'd known from Dallas, uh, people that they'd gone to school with. Uh, [00:44:20] because, uh, you- if you're not careful when you get to Washington, you can have a lot of friends all of a

[00:44:23] Peter Mallouk: sudden.

[00:44:24] Peter Mallouk: Mm-hmm,

[00:44:24] Condoleezza Rice: friends. And friends.

[00:44:26] Peter Mallouk: Right, right. [00:44:27]

[00:44:27] Condoleezza Rice: It's really quite important to keep your, keep your center, and I think they were people who kept their center. [00:44:34]

[00:44:34] Peter Mallouk: Now, I think there's a lot of things about you. I think some s- some people know about some of these personal things you're involved with, and I think some are gonna be surprising, so you're [00:44:41] obvious- I think many people know you're an incredible concert pianist.

[00:44:45] Peter Mallouk: How did that come about? Yeah. How often do you do this?

[00:44:47] Condoleezza Rice: [00:44:48] Well, I'm, I'm a, a, I- if I'd been an incredible concert pianist, we wouldn't be sitting here. I'd be playing Carnegie Hall. But, uh, m- so my [00:44:55] grandmother taught piano lessons. My mother, grandmother, and aunt, and great-grandmother were all musicians.

[00:44:58] Peter Mallouk: Okay.

[00:44:59] Condoleezza Rice: And my grandmother taught piano lessons. I stayed at her [00:45:02] house while my parents worked, and I'd go to the piano and bang at the piano, and she asked if she could teach me. And so I learned from a [00:45:09] very, very early age, planned a career in music, went to college as a piano performance major, went to the [00:45:16] Aspen Music Festival School, met 12-year-olds who could play everything it'd taken me all year to learn, and decided I needed a plan B.[00:45:23]

[00:45:23] Condoleezza Rice: Fortunately, uh, after changing my major, I wandered in this course in international politics taught by a man named [00:45:30] Joseph Korbel. It was Madeleine Albright's father. So that's what got me into international. Wow. But piano has continued to be a part of my [00:45:37] life. I, I practice. I try to practice four or five times a week, even- Wow

[00:45:41] Condoleezza Rice: even if it's just a little bit, even if it's 15 [00:45:44] min- I used to teach piano, and I would tell parents, "Don't make your kid practice an hour, right? They're gonna m- just [00:45:51] not... They won't enjoy it. They won't do it. 15 minutes is enough." And I do that very often. [00:45:58] And then I've had some great moments to play with, uh, Yo-Yo Ma, who is now a great friend.

[00:46:04] Condoleezza Rice: All right, how [00:46:05] incredible. And, uh, lo- well, he also is so good that you don't have to work very hard. Uh, I got to play for, uh, for Queen Elizabeth. [00:46:12] Um, it was supposed to be just for David Miliband, and his w- his wife is a fine violinist, and was- [00:46:19] well, London Symphony. And he c- called me. I was getting ready to leave.

[00:46:23] Condoleezza Rice: They were, uh, leave the secretaryship. He was [00:46:26] giving a dinner for me, and he said, uh, "Would you like, with Louise and her friends to maybe just play, uh, before [00:46:33] dinner?" I said, "Sure." He called me back. He said, "How about playing in Buckingham Palace?" I thought, "That's great." He called me the next day and said- [00:46:40] Yeah

[00:46:40] Condoleezza Rice: "Her Majesty would like to come." Oh, wow. And I said, "David, this has turned into something- Right ... quite different." But she was lovely, and, [00:46:47] uh, so that was a high point too. Do

[00:46:48] Peter Mallouk: you get nervous before you play or before s-

[00:46:50] Condoleezza Rice: I have- Ever, or with people, or you- I have a, I have a [00:46:54] healthy respect for what can go wrong.

[00:46:56] Condoleezza Rice: I see. Uh, Glenn Gould once said about playing Mozart, "It's not a matter of when [00:47:01] something will go, or whether something will go wrong, it's a matter of when."

[00:47:03] Peter Mallouk: Is the key to play it off,

[00:47:04] Condoleezza Rice: just keep going? Uh, the, the key is to know it, as [00:47:08] a piano professor of mine said, one, uh, 190%, so that when you lose 90%, you [00:47:15] still got 100%

[00:47:17] Peter Mallouk: That's an interesting way to look at it. Yeah. You're known to be an incredible golfer too. Did you take this up [00:47:22] before

[00:47:22] Condoleezza Rice: you were 12? Now, we have to stop with the incredible, okay?

[00:47:24] Peter Mallouk: Well, very, very tal- I'm, I'm- Not a casual golfer is my

[00:47:27] Condoleezza Rice: understanding ... not a casual golfer, but I'm a [00:47:29] decent

[00:47:29] Peter Mallouk: golfer. Okay. All right.

[00:47:30] Condoleezza Rice: Um, and so I started lo- go- golf when I was 50.

[00:47:34] Peter Mallouk: Okay.

[00:47:34] Condoleezza Rice: Uh, it was the summer [00:47:36] after I became secretary of state. My cousin and I went on vacation for a little bit at The Greenbrier in West Virginia. Yeah. It was a [00:47:43] place I could get back from in DC pretty easily. Her husband gave her golf lessons. He gave me buddy lessons, so she would [00:47:50] go, and I was the one who took to it.

[00:47:51] Peter Mallouk: And are you learning because you're like, "I'm in this political environment, I need to do this," or you just were on va- a trip and you wanted

[00:47:56] Condoleezza Rice: to- It was on a [00:47:57] trip, and, uh- Yeah ... and I, I didn't get to play very much obviously. Yeah. But I did find a pro at Andrews Air [00:48:04] Force Base, and, uh, I said to him, uh, "If it's 37 degrees or above and I have [00:48:11] time, I'll come play however much I can."

[00:48:13] Condoleezza Rice: And it became a way to be outside. When you're in those [00:48:18] jobs-

[00:48:18] Background: Mm-hmm ...

[00:48:18] Condoleezza Rice: you go from your protected car to your protected elevator to your protected [00:48:25] office. If you are fortunate and you go to the White House for a meeting, you might walk 20 feet. [00:48:32] And so now you were outside. It was an Air Force base. My security detail was completely [00:48:39] comfortable.

[00:48:39] Condoleezza Rice: I could wander off into woods and find my ball where it always was. And, uh, it felt freeing. That's good. And I think [00:48:46] that might have been what kept me going. Now it's that I love the challenge of it and I'm at Stanford, and Stanford has a [00:48:53] great golf course and two great golf teams, and so it's, it's fun for that reason now.

[00:48:57] Peter Mallouk: Do you feel totally free now? I mean, you're so high [00:49:00] profile. I, I mean, ev- everyone in America, you know, knows who you are. Mm-hmm. I mean, can you just go to a Starbucks and- Go [00:49:07] to-

[00:49:07] Condoleezza Rice: Well, it's a l- it's a little different. Uh, you know, I'm, I'm careful about- Yeah ... um, about, uh, my surroundings and [00:49:14] the like. But I've also been a part of the woodwork here for a- Right

[00:49:17] Condoleezza Rice: long time. I've been at Stanford more than 40 years. [00:49:21] They hired me when I was 11.

[00:49:22] Peter Mallouk: Uh,

[00:49:22] Condoleezza Rice: but since I've been here so long-

[00:49:25] Peter Mallouk: Yeah ...

[00:49:26] Condoleezza Rice: I'm kind of just part of the [00:49:28] campus, which is nice.

[00:49:29] Peter Mallouk: Yeah. It's really nice. If you go on, like, a vacation, can you just go to a restaurant?

[00:49:33] Condoleezza Rice: I have done that, yeah. Okay. And, and [00:49:35] sometimes people will come up, and they mostly will say, "Thanks for your service," or- Yeah

[00:49:39] Condoleezza Rice: or whatever. Or, or as of late, "My [00:49:42] mother loved you." Uh, you know, it's- It's, "I don't remember you, but my mother does," right?

[00:49:46] Peter Mallouk: It, it... Are people ju- 'cause, you know, people are so [00:49:49] hostile now. Yeah, yeah. You, you strike me as maybe a, a figure that you would not, maybe not experience that the way [00:49:56] maybe many of the presidents- Yeah

[00:49:57] Peter Mallouk: or o- others in other, other roles, that you kind of, uh, [00:50:03] uh, just seem more universal to people, to me. I don't know if it's your style. Kind of, yeah. I mean, 'cause you're very tough on a lot of [00:50:10] issues. Yeah. But do, do you find that it's easier for you to communicate a- a- across [00:50:17] political divisions because of your, your style or some other reason?

[00:50:21] Condoleezza Rice: Well, I try very hard. Um, I don't know. [00:50:24] And, and for the most part, people are incredibly polite. And, you know- Yeah ... early on, it was, it was tougher when you were first coming out of the administration. But, [00:50:31] but no, people are, are genuine, are, are, are genuinely, uh, nice. And, and if you're nice [00:50:38] to people, they're usually nice to you.

[00:50:39] Condoleezza Rice: Uh, but I think in terms of the, the partisanship and the divisions, I just try very [00:50:45] hard to remember that most of the time we're having a policy debate.

[00:50:49] Background: Right.

[00:50:49] Condoleezza Rice: Not a clash of [00:50:52] principle or you're not my enemy because you disagree with me. And I try to take that into the classroom and into my [00:50:59] relationships with my students, uh, that we can have incredibly different views.

[00:51:04] Condoleezza Rice: That was the whole [00:51:06] idea of democracy, that you could have contestation of very different and difficult issues within the [00:51:13] context of these institutions. Madison called it constant contestation. Yeah. And so, um, I try to be respectful of other [00:51:20] people's views, to listen. I have strong views. Uh, one of the things I learned, uh, when I was negotiating [00:51:27] was that, um, Americans have a real strong tendency to transmit- So we just start talking

[00:51:33] Background: Right [00:51:34]

[00:51:34] Condoleezza Rice: And sometimes it's awfully nice to step back a little bit and listen first.[00:51:41]

[00:51:41] Condoleezza Rice: And, um, I- when you're Secretary of State and you go into a room and you start transmitting, you can shut the room down in a moment [00:51:48]

[00:51:48] Peter Mallouk: Yeah

[00:51:48] Condoleezza Rice: And so if you say instead, "Well, can we hear from the German foreign minister," or, "Can we hear from the Brazilian foreign minister?" [00:51:55] Uh, it, it really does change the dynamic.

[00:51:58] Condoleezza Rice: And I tell my students, if they wanna have conversations about [00:52:02] difficult issues, try not just to transmit. Try to actually step back and listen a little bit, and, and [00:52:09] maybe, uh, that's one of the things that I, I think I've learned to do reasonably well.

[00:52:14] Peter Mallouk: Do you think that, that the world [00:52:16] is... You know, some people say the world's more- the United States is more divided than ever and more polarized than ever.

[00:52:21] Peter Mallouk: Um, some people think, well, no, [00:52:23] it's always been like this- Right ... but we have round-the-clock news and social media. Some people think it's the change in, in tone. W- what do y- [00:52:30] do you see? Are, are we more divided than ever? Are we not? Is it- Um What do you think?

[00:52:33] Condoleezza Rice: I don't think we're m- necessarily more divided than ever.

[00:52:36] Condoleezza Rice: [00:52:37] Um, uh, people forget the 1960s. We were talking about- Mm-hmm ... Birmingham, but it was- Yeah ... all

[00:52:41] Peter Mallouk: the- I guess obviously you've -- Yeah, Birmingham

[00:52:43] Condoleezza Rice: was- Your [00:52:44] history is proof- Right ... we're, we're,

[00:52:45] Peter Mallouk: we've

[00:52:45] Condoleezza Rice: been more divided Birmingham was very divided. But also, you know, the '60s and '70s were also [00:52:51] SDS- Mm-hmm ... and the Weathermen and the Black Panthers and political violence that was organized political violence.

[00:52:56] Peter Mallouk: Right.

[00:52:56] Condoleezza Rice: Um, so we've [00:52:58] had that before. Uh, we had three assassinations, uh, within five years- Yeah ... in 1960s. [00:53:05] Uh, '63, '68, '68 with, uh, John Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, Martin Luther King. Uh, so you know, we [00:53:12] had Kent State. Mm-hmm. Somebody was reminding me, uh, just at something last night. Uh, National Guard firing on [00:53:19] students.

[00:53:19] Condoleezza Rice: Uh, so we've had some ugly times, not to mention the Civil War with hundreds of- Mm-hmm ... thousands, [00:53:26] brother against brother. Yeah. But I do think the pace of it feels different right now, and that may be because n- [00:53:33] news is so instantaneous, uh, because, uh... And I'm not a Neanderthal about social media. I don't, I don't [00:53:40] love it, but I don't mind it.

[00:53:41] Peter Mallouk: Right.

[00:53:42] Condoleezza Rice: But it does encourage you to go to your corner. Yes. It encourages you to talk to your tribe. [00:53:47] It

[00:53:47] Peter Mallouk: pulls you deeper into your

[00:53:48] Condoleezza Rice: corner and deeper- Deeper into

[00:53:49] Peter Mallouk: your-

[00:53:49] Condoleezza Rice: Yeah ... into your tribe, and that I think is a problem. Uh, you're not... And I, [00:53:54] I was- a friend of mine who's, uh, actually a football player said, said, "You know, people say this stuff on social [00:54:01] media."

[00:54:01] Condoleezza Rice: He said, "They'd never have the courage to say that to my face."

[00:54:03] Peter Mallouk: Oh, for sure.

[00:54:04] Condoleezza Rice: And I think, yeah, at your size, that's absolutely right. They [00:54:08] wouldn't. But it's also true. You, you wouldn't say some of the things that people say- Yeah ... in social media. Mm-hmm. And so, uh, yeah, I think we, [00:54:15] we have a, an acceleration of, uh, of a trend because we are a very, [00:54:22] uh, uh, heterogeneous, cacophonous people.

[00:54:27] Condoleezza Rice: Mm-hmm. [00:54:29] Most of the time our institutions can handle it. We're having a little harder time now.

[00:54:33] Peter Mallouk: You mentioned football, and earlier you mentioned- [00:54:36] Right ... going from Birmingham to Denver- Yes ... and you're an owner of the Denver

[00:54:39] Condoleezza Rice: Broncos. Denver Broncos. It's, a small owner. Right. I have four helmets, but yes. But

[00:54:42] Peter Mallouk: st- [00:54:43]

[00:54:43] Condoleezza Rice: Uh, yeah, I, I absolutely love...

[00:54:46] Condoleezza Rice: I, I love football. Great. So if you're an only child, you have your parents [00:54:50] to, to please on both sides. Mother, it was music. Daddy, it was sports and, and politics. And

[00:54:55] Peter Mallouk: you really pleased them [00:54:57] both.

[00:54:57] Condoleezza Rice: Oh, absolutely. I mean, they, they're

[00:54:58] Peter Mallouk: both very

[00:54:58] Condoleezza Rice: h- yeah. My, my father probably in heaven thinks that I finally got a really good job-

[00:55:02] Condoleezza Rice: I'm a Bronco owner. [00:55:04] But, um, I love the sport. Yeah. Um, he, he taught me the, really the X's and O's. I can remember- Yeah ... at [00:55:11] seven or eight years old, "Condoleezza, what are the..." "Daddy, that's a trap block." You know? So I love the sport. Yeah. But I also love [00:55:18] having the chance to return to Denver.

[00:55:20] Peter Mallouk: So you get out to a few games too.

[00:55:21] Condoleezza Rice: I do get out- Oh, that's great ... to a few games. Went, went to the playoff games [00:55:25] this year.

[00:55:25] Peter Mallouk: Yeah.

[00:55:26] Condoleezza Rice: Loved it until I didn't. Right. I was kind of sad in that way, but, uh, but also a great season. [00:55:32] And, and the Broncos in particular are, um, really important, not just to Denver. They're kind of a regional [00:55:39] team.

[00:55:39] Peter Mallouk: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:39] Condoleezza Rice: Because there are... You know, whether you're talking about New Mexico or Utah or other places, you- they'll tend to be Bronco fans. And

[00:55:45] Peter Mallouk: it's like my Kansas [00:55:46] City Chiefs.

[00:55:46] Condoleezza Rice: Uh, yeah, the- It's the same thing regionally. Well, sure. Right, yeah.

[00:55:49] Peter Mallouk: I had to grow up watching Elway beat us up year after year after year, so it's

[00:55:52] Condoleezza Rice: gotta turn [00:55:53] at some point.

[00:55:53] Condoleezza Rice: Well, you, you, you made up for it. Made up for it. I'm, I'm, I'm not a Chiefs hater. Several, several... A couple years [00:56:00] ago I decided I was just gonna start admiring the Chiefs rather than being resentful.

[00:56:05] Peter Mallouk: I never got there with the Broncos, [00:56:07] uh- ... decades ago. Um, you- and so speaking of football, you were on the CFP board.

[00:56:13] Peter Mallouk: I was, the [00:56:14] College- Uh, how does that happen, where you're- Yeah ... in the playoff committee?

[00:56:17] Condoleezza Rice: Well, when I was provost of Stanford, uh, which is the [00:56:21] chief operating officer at Stanford, I actually oversaw athletics. I've hired football coaches and, and [00:56:28] run athletic programs. And so they were actually looking for somebody for the first, uh, committee that had kind of [00:56:35] academic/athletic experience.

[00:56:36] Condoleezza Rice: Mm-hmm. And so I think that's why I was brought on that, and the fact that they know that I care about intercollegiate [00:56:42] athletics. And so it was a great experience, a wonderful committee. Uh, we only had four selections [00:56:49] in those days, uh, so scarcity was not a bad thing. Right. I- it's expanded. That's probably a good thing.

[00:56:54] Peter Mallouk: And could expand

[00:56:54] Condoleezza Rice: again probably. And could expand [00:56:56] again. I'm, I'm worried about college athletics- Mm-hmm ... uh, because, um, I, I don't mind that through [00:57:03] name, image, and likeness, NIL, uh, athletes can benefit from their name, image, and likeness. Right. Uh, in fact, [00:57:10] they were probably the only- people on campus who couldn't.

[00:57:12] Condoleezza Rice: Oh. If you were a music major and you- Yeah ... did a video, you could benefit. [00:57:17] So I'm fine with that. But it's become now, um, uh, pay for play in a way that's [00:57:24] unfortunate. We have, we're losing the sense that these are student athletes.

[00:57:28] Background: Mm-hmm.

[00:57:29] Condoleezza Rice: And, uh, [00:57:31] when you're transferring three, four times, what kind of an academic experience- Mm

[00:57:36] Condoleezza Rice: is that? Uh, when [00:57:38] we're looking at people who've played nine years and 25- Right. ... and 26-year-old quarterbacks- Right ... uh, that can't be [00:57:45] good. And so I'm hoping that, um, maybe through congressional action we can get back [00:57:52] to the place that they can benefit, I have no problem for that. Mm. But that we reestablish that [00:57:59] this is really also about getting a college education.

[00:58:01] Condoleezza Rice: You know, when we did the, I did a basketball commission for the NCAA, [00:58:06] and 50, we did a survey, 59% of D1 players thought they were going to the NBA.

[00:58:11] Background: Oh, wow.

[00:58:12] Condoleezza Rice: The real number's 1.5%. [00:58:13] Mm-hmm. People need a plan B.

[00:58:15] Background: Yes.

[00:58:15] Condoleezza Rice: It's called a, a c- a, a degree, college degree. [00:58:20] And I also don't wanna lose Olympic sports because football is becoming so- Mm

[00:58:25] Condoleezza Rice: expensive, [00:58:27] and I don't wanna lose women's sports. The one great thing that I see with intercollegiate athletes, [00:58:34] and here at Stanford we play 36 sports, we had, uh, as many Olympic medals, I think we were right behind, [00:58:41] uh, Canada and just ahead of Germany. I saw that. Yeah. So the Olympic sports are really important here.

[00:58:47] Condoleezza Rice: But I've watched what [00:58:48] has happened with women's sports, where these young women get an opportunity to do the things that really only sports can teach you, [00:58:55] resilience. You have to practice hard at things that you don't g- do well. Mm-hmm. Not just the things that you do well. You have a bad [00:59:02] performance, you have to get up the next day and keep going.

[00:59:04] Condoleezza Rice: Those are life's lessons. And the leadership skills that they get, and the [00:59:09] discipline and the commitment that they show, I hope we can get back to thinking about that in college athletics.

[00:59:14] Peter Mallouk: I think you're onto something with the [00:59:16] congressional action because I think if, if you take the current path, what's gonna happen is you'll have 40 schools that wind up with- That's right

[00:59:22] Peter Mallouk: all of the [00:59:23] players. Right. And it will actually start to impact the cities and the economies- Right ... of these universities- Right ... that aren't in [00:59:30] that group. You'll wind up 40 teams in a couple big conferences- Everyone else's student attendance is gonna go down by a third. Yeah. People don't want to admit it, but [00:59:37] sports, football and basketball in particular, at most schools are kind of the marketing arm.

[00:59:42] Peter Mallouk: They are. You know, I don't go back to the business [00:59:44] school where I went. I watch- I go back to the basketball game- Basketball, yeah ... or the football game. And, and if you wind up with just 40 schools, the other [00:59:51] ones, attendance will go down. Their, their- Exactly ... communities will suffer. Um, they're gonna have to do something to-

[00:59:55] Condoleezza Rice: Well, and universities are running into [00:59:58] a lot of red tape trying to- Mm-hmm

[00:59:59] Condoleezza Rice: maintain these, these big programs. And, you know, at, at Stanford, uh, it, it's not for us a [01:00:05] huge marketing issue, but it is a huge alumni issue. Mm. It is a huge community building- Yes ... issue. And, uh, I [01:00:12] just want it to be the case that, uh, we can continue to take an [01:00:19] 18-year-old student and watch what happens by the time they're 21 or 22 and they've been good in the [01:00:26] classroom and they've been good on the, the, the playing field as well.

[01:00:30] Condoleezza Rice: Now, Tiger Woods said at one point that, [01:00:33] um, when he... 'Cause he's a Stanford- Yeah ... uh, guy. He said at one point, he said, "You know, when I got to Stanford, I thought I was to- you know, I [01:00:40] was something else. I was Tiger Woods." He said, "And then I realized the kid above me had already built his own computer." "And I thought, well, maybe I'm not so great."

[01:00:46] Condoleezza Rice: [01:00:47] Yeah. So I- it's, it's great to have them as, as students, and I'm afraid we're losing some of

[01:00:51] Peter Mallouk: that. Yeah, I hope they figure it out quick because all these schools [01:00:54] are gonna start to drop everything that's not football and basketball- That's right. That's right ... to throw all their money- That's right ... into, into one thing.

[01:00:58] Peter Mallouk: I'm with you on that.

[01:00:59] Condoleezza Rice: Yes.

[01:01:00] Peter Mallouk: All right, back to the [01:01:01] beginning. Mm. So you're meeting with a young Condoleezza Rice. Yeah. And that young [01:01:08] girl is thinking about going into foreign policy.

[01:01:10] Condoleezza Rice: Yeah.

[01:01:11] Peter Mallouk: With all you know over all this time, what's your [01:01:15] advice to her?

[01:01:15] Condoleezza Rice: Well, the first thing I would tell her is, uh, "Actually, you were thinking about being a concert pianist," right?

[01:01:21] Condoleezza Rice: "And [01:01:22] that didn't work out, but that's okay. Plan B worked out really well." And I would say to her that, um, there's [01:01:29] really nothing quite like, um, the opportunity to know other cultures- Uh, to try to [01:01:36] understand where people are coming from, what, what their greatest ambitions and fears [01:01:43] and, uh, hopes are, and to try within an international system that always has a fair amount of chaos in [01:01:50] it, uh, to use the power of the United States of America to try to make it a more prosperous and peaceful world.

[01:01:56] Condoleezza Rice: And if you go into [01:01:57] foreign policy and you're fortunate enough to represent the United States as Secretary of State, you're going to get to do that. And it won't [01:02:04] always work out, and there will be things that you regret. You'll regret that you weren't able to bring a [01:02:11] Palestinian state alongside the democratic state of Israel.

[01:02:14] Condoleezza Rice: You'll always regret that you didn't see 9/11 coming or that, [01:02:18] that Iraq was so tough. But you'll also be really grateful that you were a part of the, uh, an [01:02:25] administration that believed no man, woman or child should live in tyranny, and said it and tried to speak for the voiceless and for religious [01:02:32] objectors and political objectors, and created the President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief that saved 25 [01:02:39] million lives.

[01:02:40] Condoleezza Rice: So, uh, go for it, little Condoleezza, and you can still play the piano on the side. [01:02:46]

[01:02:46] Peter Mallouk: Sounds like exactly what you're, you wound up doing. Yeah. So I love it. Thank you. What a great way to end. Good to see you.

[01:02:51] Condoleezza Rice: Good to see you. Thank you very [01:02:53] much.

[01:02:55] Peter Mallouk: That was fantastic.

[01:02:56] Condoleezza Rice: It was fun. Thank you. Really good.

[01:02:57] Peter Mallouk: Thank you for

[01:02:57] Condoleezza Rice: being here.

[01:02:58] Condoleezza Rice: Yeah.

[01:02:59] Peter Mallouk: Incredible to talk you

Investing in stock markets involves the risk of loss. Rankings and/or recognition by unaffiliated rating services and/or publications should not be construed by a client or prospective client as a guarantee that he/she will experience a certain level of results if Creative Planning is engaged, or continues to be engaged, to provide investment advisory services. For additional disclosures, visit https://creativeplanning.com/important-disclosure-information/.